Hello All- I am new to this forum, and BRAND new to houseboating. My wife and I are seriously considering buying a Cruise-a-Home 40'.

Among the questions we have, one regards the head. Newmatic II model 53420 head. It is labeled as US Coast Guard Cert. No 159015/206/0.

The current owner says that this head is approved for direct discharge, and doesn't need a holding tank. The boat will be operated in the SF Bay, and Sacramento River Delta.

Is this legal? And responsible?

Thanks in advance.

Don W

"Newmatic" doesn't ring a bell...although from your de_script_ion, it has
to be either a version of the Monogram Monomatic or a similar system
made by Danforth in the 70s and early 80s. Both were discontinued
more than 20 years ago...no parts have been available for at least 15
years.



Both the Danforth and the Monomatic were recirculating toilets
that were legal Type I device. And a few of 'em do still
survive....they occasionally show up on eBay--which, unless the boat is
a 70s or very early 80s model, is prob'ly where the seller got
it. However, they only holds 5 gals, 3 of which are the
initial "charge" of flush water and chemical--no longer available
either, so it's no longer a legal Type I, even if the seller has been
using whatever chemical he's been able to find (most likely swimming
pool chlorine--or he may not be using anything, which is most
definitely illegal!)--and then you get to watch your previous flushes
recirculate through the bowl as flush water with each new one. When
it's full, you dump it, re-"charge" it, and start over.



It may be working now--at least, can be flushed and dumped...but when
it needs parts, you're not gonna be able to get 'em. And frankly,
I wouldn't have ANY recirculating toilet as a gift...they STINK!



However, I wouldn't consider any toilet to be a deal breaker...just
plan on replacing it with a new toilet and either a current Type I MSD
or a holding tank.



Whatever you decide about buying the boat, make any offer "subject to
survey" and hire the best surveyor around--preferably one that's
NAMS certified. You've admitted you don't know the first thing
about boats (at least not boats with all the systems on a
houseboat)...you need a qualified expert to go over it with a
fine-toothed comb, 'cuz older boats can have a lot of problems that
aren't obvious even to people who think they DO know a lot.


peghall38596.2677083333

Dear Peg- Thank you! Yes, our offer will be subject to survey. There are some other issues as well. I did a google search on the toilet, and you are right, it is a Monomatic (see clipped text below). I'll have to do more research about the cost of adding a normal head and holding tank.

I guess what I'm still confused about is if the toilet is "legal", assuming the correct chemicals are used (owner said he has the chemicals), or if used with chlorine? If so, we could put off any work until we were doing other stuff as well.

Thank you again!!!

Don



Product De_script_ion: Recirculating Toilets





Listee:
MONOGRAM SANITATION
800 W ARTESIA BLVD
COMPTON , CA 90220-5104

CANCELLED

Expiration Date: no data

Identification:
Manufacturer's name, model number, operation instructions and IAPMO T® certification mark on a decal located on underside of toilet seat lid.



Characteristics:
Model 340: This recirculating toilet bowl and tank unit is constructed of injection molded plastic. A specially designed pump, strainer unit and pre-packaged type chemicals are employed to produce odor and bacterial control. A condition of use required that the unit be installed with the wasteholding valve above the floor and under the unit.

Model 640: Has a specially designed pump and filter unit which is actuated by a foot pedal and arm assembly.

Model 175: Has a specially designed pump and strainer assembly which is actuated by a handle located at the top rear of the unit.

Model 747E: Electrically operated. A special pre-packaged chemical, with a minimum of three (3) half gallons of water used to produce an odor and bacterial control. Units require that they be installed with a waste holding valve above the floor. Units are supplied with a mounting flange and rubber gasket for connection to standard closet ring.

Model 747M: A manual hand pump filler and flush handle are employed to operate this unit.

Model 53400: This recirculating toilet bowl and tank unit is the same as Model 340 Monomatic. it will be identified by a new model number designation and will be called the "Newmatic II".

I can help you estimate the cost of replacement:



Electric toilets have a wide price range. Unless you're determined to
have "household" styling, an excellent quality macerating electric
toilet (Raritan SeaEra) will run you about $350. A
one-piece china model--either the Raritan Atlantes or the Italian made
Tecma is $800-1000.



The best source for a holding tank is Ronco Plastics (no relation to
Ron Popiel's vegomatic company)...they make TOP quality tanks for a
very reasonable price and have more than 400 shapes and sizes to choose
from. On a 40' boat, you'd want at least a 40 gal. tank...about
$350.



You do NOT want ANY _meta_l tank for waste holding! Urine is so corrosive
that it'll eat through a weld at a seam or fitting within an average of
2-5 years...turn the tank into a collander in an average of 10 years.



Or, since the only "no discharge" (holding tanks only) waters anywhere
within several hundred miles of you is a small harbor off SF Bay, you
can avoid holding sewage at all by installing a Lectra/San or Purasan
(Type I MSDs)...retail price at discount is $700-800 for the L/S,
$600-700 for the Purasan.



So you can estimate a VERY nice new toilet and tank or treatment device
combined, plus hoses and necessary fittings, at somewhere between
$800-$1200, plus installation.



As for whether the toilet is still a legal Type I... from the info you posted: "...and pre-packaged type chemicals are employed to produce odor and bacterial control." Only
THAT chemical--by the brand name and packet size specified by the mfr
when the device was certified may LEGALLY be used. And that particular
chemical was discontinued at least 15 years ago. So the seller has to
be substituting something...and it may actually treat the discharge to
legal standards, but unless tested and recertified for use in it by the
USGC (who doesn't test individual devices), it AIN'T legal (though I
have little doubt that he thinks it is)...'cuz without testing the
discharge there's no way to know whether the waste is treated to legal
standards or not.



Treatment devices must also meet legal standards for
maceration ("puree"/liquify) and mixing...which requires several
minutes, which in turn requres a timer. So if ANY part of that device
isn't working or has been replaced with other than identical, that
would negate it as a legal Type I no matter how much chemical or what
kind is used. I run into a lot of owners who think that as long as they
can dump chemicals into a device and that device can dump the waste,
it's still legal even if nothing but the overboard pump is still
working or has been replaced with one intended only to dump a tank at
sea beyond the "3 mile limit."



All that said, you can prob'ly get away with it, though...unless you
happen to run into a CG vessel inspector who really knows his stuff
about sanitation laws. But I suspect that after using it for a VERY
short time, you'll be champing at the bit to replace it...I've yet to
hear from anyone yet who wasn't.

Peg- you are a wonderful font of information. I sort of figured the above out on my own, from searching on the Web, but am 1000% more confident about it now. I WILL buy your book, the moment I actually own this (or another) boat. Maybe I'll buy it now, just for entertaining reading.

Tanks again (pun intended),

Don